Climate Policy's Acid Test

DW-TV: Mr. Gabriel, at the European Union summit earlier this year, the German chancellor reached a breakthrough on climate and energy policy in the EU. The deal would see renewable energy sources making up 20 percent of Europe's energy by 2020 -- a relatively ambitious goal. At the G8 summit in Heiligendamm, the chancellor also managed to convince US President George W. Bush to take on the problem of climate change. It was clear before Germany took over the rotating presidency of the EU that climate protection would be an important topic. But, to be honest, did you expect these somewhat surprisingly positive results?

Sigmar Gabriel: Yes. That became clear in the meetings of the Environment Council that were held before the EU summit. We all agreed on one position in the EU, but of course it is still a great success. It was only possible because the heads of state and government got personally involved. If meetings were only between environment ministers, then we would never have had the power to make sweeping changes. Climate change and energy policy is more than just an environmental issue. It's security, stability and economic policy. The leaders realize this now and this is a great success for Germany's term as president of the EU. It's also been a success for the grand coalition in Germany, for its climate and energy policy.

But the real test lies ahead. The promises made at Heiligendamm now have to be fulfilled. The UN climate conference in Bali in December is the next step to replace the Kyoto Protocol. That runs out in 2012 and it is important that countries like China, India and the US show more willingness to take part in climate protection. Do you think it will be a success?

George Bush has said that he will take part in the discussions, but he has not made any clear statements on the goals. It's a bit like the Neil Armstrong quote: It might be a giant leap for the Americans -- but only a small step for mankind. We have to get a mandate for negotiation in Bali. Then we will spend two years working out the new treaty. The Kyoto Protocol ends in 2012. Between 2009 and 2012, we have to get the new treaty ratified across the world. In Germany we have to get it passed by the 16 federal states. That takes time. So you can just imagine how long it will take for the whole world. We will need two years after the negotiations to get it passed by parliaments. We have to have a new treaty ready to come into effect by Jan 1., 2013, that provides far more climate protection than the Kyoto Protocol. It is of course also necessary that the international community backs the new treaty. The countries that are responsible for climate change -- the industrialized nations, and that includes Europe and Germany -- have to show that you can have economic growth and increased energy efficiency.

This is why we have to pass new climate and energy laws in Germany by the end of the year. The German chancellor not only has to convince seven federal states to pass these laws. She also has to convince the state premiers from her own conservative block, which seems increasingly difficult. We have worked well together with Chancellor Merkel and then we see our efforts undermined by conservative leaders. We can't let this happen. We can't demand that other countries participate and then do too little ourselves. This is the acid test for climate and energy policy -- we will see whether federal states run by conservatives block or pass the new laws.

Two weeks ago there was a meeting about this in the Chancellery. It was decided, against the will of German industry, to increase energy efficiency by 3 percent annually. Currently it's only 1 percent. Those are pretty ambitious targets and German industry says it can't afford to do it. How realistic is this goal?

I never understood the fact that industry was against these plans. Surely it's in their interests to reduce energy costs. When energy prices rise then it is prudent to reduce energy consumption. By the way, our energy efficiency currently increases at a rate of 1.7 percent. In times of economic growth energy efficiency also improves because plants become more efficient. People buy new cars, which are more efficient. So even without doing anything energy efficiency has risen to just under 2 percent. Now industry has to keep its promises and increase combined heat and power generation. We will introduce new laws because they have not lived up to their promises. We will do more on the consumer side -- electrical goods will use less power, buildings will be better insulated. For all that we will provide extra subsidies.

The disputes between you and certain parts of industry in Germany are often quite vocal. There were press reports of comments you made -- for example you said the actions of BASF CEO Hambrecht reminded you of business Stalinism. You were then accused of being an ecological Bolshevik. Does it do any good to deal with each other in this way?

No, it doesn't. But sometimes you have to talk straight. If business leaders say they will only continue to talk to the government when it does what they say, then I have to tell them to look at the constitution. All state authority comes from the people through elections. This is not about special interests, it's about the good of the people. I can understand that certain parts of German industry are annoyed that we are now putting more pressure on them to do what they promised in the first place but never actually did. They pledged to reduce CO2 emissions by 20 tons by 2005. The reality is 30 million tons extra were emitted, although high energy users like the chemical, steel, and aluminum industries actually cut CO2 emissions. But the energy industry itself increased emissions. So you can't just simply speak of German industry as a whole.

Let's stay on the topic of the power companies. Vattenfall, a Swedish energy giant, had incidents recently at two nuclear plants in the north of Germany. Without saying too much, let's say that the information given by the company was questionable. As a Social Democrat, does that give you more reason to stick by plans, or even increase pressure, to phase out nuclear energy in Germany.

First of all, it shows that old power stations have risks. It makes sense to close old nuclear power plants sooner and let newer power plants run longer. This is because of the age and not necessarily because of the company that runs them, or the workers. I'm convinced that they are doing their jobs as well as possible. The nuclear power law also states that old plants should close first. But the energy companies want to do the opposite. The reason is simple. These old power plants have been completely paid off, so they make one million euros ($1.37 million) more profit a day than the newer plants. But safety comes first.

They have to close down the older plants and we will keep a strict eye on the plants that had incidents recently. The Krümmel plant will not be restarted until all problems have been solved. This is particularly true of the communication problems. Vattenfall has finally agreed to let us talk directly to the people in charge at the time of the incidents. We're not out to get them. We just want to find out how it happened so that we know how to react the next time and check other plants for similar dangers.

We want to talk to the workers behind closed doors and we won't be holding any one person accountable. I'm sure they all tried to do their best. But mistakes were made and we have to find out which ones.

DW-TV's Jens Thurau interviewed Sigmar Gabriel (win)